1 00:00:09,100 --> 00:00:05,910 [Music] 2 00:00:11,830 --> 00:00:09,110 welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast 3 00:00:13,910 --> 00:00:11,840 from Australia for science and reason 4 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:13,920 [Music] 5 00:00:22,890 --> 00:00:16,850 [Applause] 6 00:00:25,390 --> 00:00:22,900 [Music] 7 00:00:28,569 --> 00:00:25,400 yes it's the skeptic zone podcast 8 00:00:31,300 --> 00:00:28,579 episode number 488 for the 25th of 9 00:00:34,869 --> 00:00:31,310 February 2018 richardsaunders here with 10 00:00:37,380 --> 00:00:34,879 you from a.m. look raining yes it's 11 00:00:39,460 --> 00:00:37,390 raining still humid Sydney Australia 12 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:39,470 before we start thank you to those 13 00:00:45,009 --> 00:00:42,050 people who wrote to me and left comments 14 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:45,019 expressing their sympathy as there you 15 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:47,210 may recall last week I said I fell on my 16 00:00:52,689 --> 00:00:49,850 back and heard it luckily nothing was 17 00:00:56,410 --> 00:00:52,699 broken thank you I appreciate your your 18 00:00:58,450 --> 00:00:56,420 kind your kind thoughts it's the back is 19 00:01:03,580 --> 00:00:58,460 getting much better it's the tooth that 20 00:01:06,969 --> 00:01:03,590 oh dear it's one of the back bicuspids 21 00:01:09,550 --> 00:01:06,979 something or other up up at the top left 22 00:01:12,999 --> 00:01:09,560 and it looks like it's going to need a 23 00:01:16,060 --> 00:01:13,009 crown but the moment the nerve is acting 24 00:01:18,340 --> 00:01:16,070 up so the painkillers have kicked in so 25 00:01:20,919 --> 00:01:18,350 I think I should be able to do a skeptic 26 00:01:22,540 --> 00:01:20,929 zone podcast coming up on this week's 27 00:01:24,820 --> 00:01:22,550 show we're going to chat to susan gerbic 28 00:01:26,980 --> 00:01:24,830 from guerrilla skepticism on wikipedia 29 00:01:28,900 --> 00:01:26,990 which we do from time to time and I 30 00:01:30,969 --> 00:01:28,910 thought it would be interesting because 31 00:01:33,219 --> 00:01:30,979 we're always talking about it and 32 00:01:34,839 --> 00:01:33,229 advertising it saying why don't you 33 00:01:37,210 --> 00:01:34,849 become an editor for guerrilla 34 00:01:38,830 --> 00:01:37,220 skepticism and edit Wikipedia pages I 35 00:01:40,870 --> 00:01:38,840 thought it would be interesting to talk 36 00:01:43,449 --> 00:01:40,880 to an actual editor one here in 37 00:01:45,790 --> 00:01:43,459 Australia stuart jones and victoria who 38 00:01:48,969 --> 00:01:45,800 took up the call contacted susan gerbic 39 00:01:51,580 --> 00:01:48,979 and is now an editor so i have a chat 40 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:51,590 with stuart and victoria and susan 41 00:01:55,630 --> 00:01:52,970 gerbic all the way over there in the 42 00:01:58,449 --> 00:01:55,640 united states and we find out what the 43 00:02:00,460 --> 00:01:58,459 process is is it enjoyable what can you 44 00:02:02,229 --> 00:02:00,470 learn and i think you'll find it very 45 00:02:03,999 --> 00:02:02,239 interesting and if you're considering 46 00:02:08,169 --> 00:02:04,009 being an editor for guerrilla skepticism 47 00:02:11,199 --> 00:02:08,179 on wikipedia this is the interview for 48 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:11,209 you following that it's our new reporter 49 00:02:18,190 --> 00:02:14,690 dr. paul ii and let me read you her bio 50 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:18,200 which is at skeptic zone TV dr. Pauly 51 00:02:25,119 --> 00:02:21,170 reporter and her segment is called let's 52 00:02:27,550 --> 00:02:25,129 have a random rant a random rant dr. 53 00:02:28,959 --> 00:02:27,560 paul ii is a senior research fellow at 54 00:02:31,780 --> 00:02:28,969 the center for research in 55 00:02:33,850 --> 00:02:31,790 evidence-based practice bond university 56 00:02:35,980 --> 00:02:33,860 she is also a practicing 57 00:02:39,190 --> 00:02:35,990 unity pharmacist and longtime skeptic 58 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:39,200 originally from Melbourne in 2012 she 59 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:40,610 helped organize the annual Australian 60 00:02:46,270 --> 00:02:43,250 skeptic on meeting that's the Australian 61 00:02:48,730 --> 00:02:46,280 skeptics convention now she's in sunny 62 00:02:50,770 --> 00:02:48,740 Queensland she is the Gold Coast 63 00:02:53,980 --> 00:02:50,780 sceptics current president and secretary 64 00:02:57,190 --> 00:02:53,990 and you can click the link to the gold 65 00:03:00,310 --> 00:02:57,200 coast skeptics at skeptic zone TV I'll 66 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:00,320 add a link in dr. Pauly's segment there 67 00:03:05,410 --> 00:03:03,290 on this week's show notes down it's 68 00:03:07,210 --> 00:03:05,420 wonderful to have dr. Paul II on board a 69 00:03:09,550 --> 00:03:07,220 new report a very exciting I wrote a 70 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:09,560 little less thin for witches you'll hear 71 00:03:14,530 --> 00:03:11,450 it later she said she liked head-banging 72 00:03:17,410 --> 00:03:14,540 music okay she's going to be talking to 73 00:03:19,479 --> 00:03:17,420 associate professor Ken Harvey now again 74 00:03:22,449 --> 00:03:19,489 you would have heard over the years on 75 00:03:25,090 --> 00:03:22,459 the skeptic zone interviews and reports 76 00:03:27,970 --> 00:03:25,100 about the TGA the therapeutics Goods 77 00:03:30,670 --> 00:03:27,980 Administration the overseeing body the 78 00:03:33,940 --> 00:03:30,680 people that put aust-r for registered or 79 00:03:37,210 --> 00:03:33,950 Aust Elfa listed on medication in 80 00:03:38,949 --> 00:03:37,220 Australia they oversee devices medicines 81 00:03:41,020 --> 00:03:38,959 that sort of thing and they've been 82 00:03:43,170 --> 00:03:41,030 coming under a lot of Chris's criticism 83 00:03:46,930 --> 00:03:43,180 lately because of the watering down of 84 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:46,940 there what's the word their authority 85 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:48,530 I'm not sure if that's quite the right 86 00:03:56,699 --> 00:03:52,730 word a lot of people are very concerned 87 00:03:59,410 --> 00:03:56,709 that things like pre-approval for 88 00:04:01,750 --> 00:03:59,420 assessment of therapeutic goods is being 89 00:04:04,330 --> 00:04:01,760 watered down this seems to be as 90 00:04:07,870 --> 00:04:04,340 reported last week a bizarre list of new 91 00:04:10,060 --> 00:04:07,880 indications like yin and yang and Qi and 92 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:10,070 these sort of words coming in which is 93 00:04:16,509 --> 00:04:14,570 incredible and the complaints if people 94 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:16,519 have complaints about medicine that they 95 00:04:20,500 --> 00:04:17,690 are the overseeing body 96 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:20,510 well dr. Harvey is a longtime friend and 97 00:04:24,820 --> 00:04:22,610 critic of the TGA and he's going to be 98 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:24,830 talking to dr. Pauli about the latest 99 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:28,610 amendments to the TGA the laws the 100 00:04:34,540 --> 00:04:31,250 governor and some of the real concerns 101 00:04:36,190 --> 00:04:34,550 here and many of this have now bear in 102 00:04:39,430 --> 00:04:36,200 mind that this interview was conducted 103 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:39,440 in less than ideal circumstances so 104 00:04:42,969 --> 00:04:40,970 there's a bit of background noise the 105 00:04:45,310 --> 00:04:42,979 connection wasn't all that clear but you 106 00:04:48,750 --> 00:04:45,320 can certainly hear everything and I 107 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:50,950 regulation concerning medications 108 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:52,730 anywhere will get a lot out of this 109 00:04:58,480 --> 00:04:55,370 interview let's have a random rant with 110 00:05:00,700 --> 00:04:58,490 dr. Paulie but before we start here's a 111 00:05:03,070 --> 00:05:00,710 little story that was just brought to my 112 00:05:05,230 --> 00:05:03,080 attention by our former reporter and 113 00:05:07,840 --> 00:05:05,240 vice president of the Australian 114 00:05:10,810 --> 00:05:07,850 skeptics Joe and Ben amou and it's all 115 00:05:13,780 --> 00:05:10,820 about scientific journals and their 116 00:05:17,290 --> 00:05:13,790 accountability when it comes to letters 117 00:05:21,130 --> 00:05:17,300 and papers published and retractions and 118 00:05:23,710 --> 00:05:21,140 we look to retraction watch tracking 119 00:05:26,500 --> 00:05:23,720 retractions as a window into the 120 00:05:28,150 --> 00:05:26,510 scientific process what an important 121 00:05:29,710 --> 00:05:28,160 website this is and I'll link in the 122 00:05:31,540 --> 00:05:29,720 show notes and I think you might find it 123 00:05:34,780 --> 00:05:31,550 very interesting especially the 124 00:05:36,780 --> 00:05:34,790 scientific academics out there published 125 00:05:40,690 --> 00:05:36,790 in February at retraction watch 126 00:05:43,980 --> 00:05:40,700 retraction watch calm retracted letter 127 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:43,990 about vaccine safety made potentially 128 00:05:50,830 --> 00:05:48,050 slanderous claims last October David 129 00:05:53,950 --> 00:05:50,840 Hawks read a letter to the editor that 130 00:05:55,930 --> 00:05:53,960 shocked him it alleged Hawks and a 131 00:05:59,080 --> 00:05:55,940 colleague had lied about their 132 00:06:01,690 --> 00:05:59,090 professional affiliations Hawks told 133 00:06:06,010 --> 00:06:01,700 retraction watch that he had contacted 134 00:06:08,500 --> 00:06:06,020 the journal toxicology on October 19 to 135 00:06:11,500 --> 00:06:08,510 complain that the letter contained quote 136 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:11,510 numerous factual errors and could 137 00:06:15,730 --> 00:06:13,490 adversely affect our professional 138 00:06:17,980 --> 00:06:15,740 standing end quote and requested the 139 00:06:21,100 --> 00:06:17,990 journal retracted as soon as possible 140 00:06:24,460 --> 00:06:21,110 Hawks told the editors of toxicology 141 00:06:26,590 --> 00:06:24,470 quote the claims about myself and Joann 142 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:26,600 been amou are factually incorrect and we 143 00:06:31,210 --> 00:06:29,210 have received professional advice that 144 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:31,220 they also could be considered slanderous 145 00:06:36,310 --> 00:06:33,890 and quote the journal retracted the 146 00:06:39,070 --> 00:06:36,320 letter yesterday four months after Hawks 147 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:39,080 request the letter was co-authored by 148 00:06:43,690 --> 00:06:41,690 Christopher Shaw who has withdrawn three 149 00:06:46,300 --> 00:06:43,700 papers about vaccine safety in the past 150 00:06:48,460 --> 00:06:46,310 two years it was written in response to 151 00:06:51,340 --> 00:06:48,470 a letter by hawks and venom ooh that 152 00:06:53,710 --> 00:06:51,350 critiqued a 2016 paper by sure and his 153 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:53,720 colleagues which had suggested a vaccine 154 00:07:00,100 --> 00:06:56,690 adjuvant might have negative effects the 155 00:07:02,740 --> 00:07:00,110 2016 paper has been cited seven times 156 00:07:05,770 --> 00:07:02,750 - Claire evades analystics web of 157 00:07:08,620 --> 00:07:05,780 science according to the notice quote 158 00:07:11,050 --> 00:07:08,630 this letter to the editor has been 159 00:07:13,180 --> 00:07:11,060 retracted at the request of the managing 160 00:07:15,250 --> 00:07:13,190 editor as it contained inappropriate 161 00:07:17,410 --> 00:07:15,260 statements about the affiliation of the 162 00:07:20,500 --> 00:07:17,420 authors of the earlier letter to the 163 00:07:25,450 --> 00:07:20,510 editor published by toxicology three 164 00:07:27,370 --> 00:07:25,460 eight nine twenty 1753 however evidence 165 00:07:29,700 --> 00:07:27,380 has been provided to the editor to 166 00:07:32,860 --> 00:07:29,710 support the affiliation of these authors 167 00:07:36,270 --> 00:07:32,870 apologies are offered to the readers for 168 00:07:39,910 --> 00:07:36,280 any inconvenience that this may cause 169 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:39,920 main quote in September Shaw 170 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:42,650 Christopher Exley of Kiel University in 171 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:45,170 the UK and others fired back with a 172 00:07:48,820 --> 00:07:47,090 letter of their own in which they 173 00:07:52,030 --> 00:07:48,830 accused Hawkes and Ben amou of 174 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:52,040 fabricating their affiliations quote 175 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:54,650 Hawke suggesting correctly that he is 176 00:07:58,630 --> 00:07:56,450 currently a staff member at the 177 00:08:01,390 --> 00:07:58,640 University of Melbourne and neither of 178 00:08:04,150 --> 00:08:01,400 the affiliations given by Ben amou have 179 00:08:06,610 --> 00:08:04,160 ever heard of her men quote after 180 00:08:08,980 --> 00:08:06,620 reading the letter Hawkes provided the 181 00:08:11,110 --> 00:08:08,990 journal with proof that he works at the 182 00:08:14,350 --> 00:08:11,120 University of Melbourne in Victoria 183 00:08:16,630 --> 00:08:14,360 Australia and that Ben amou quote has 184 00:08:19,510 --> 00:08:16,640 written permission from Monash bioethics 185 00:08:21,700 --> 00:08:19,520 Center as a postgraduate student and 186 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:21,710 teaching associate to list them as 187 00:08:28,150 --> 00:08:25,250 affiliations banquet and is a full-time 188 00:08:32,020 --> 00:08:28,160 employee of Austin health both in 189 00:08:34,630 --> 00:08:32,030 Victoria a commentator on pub appear who 190 00:08:36,670 --> 00:08:34,640 Hawke said was not him or Ben amou also 191 00:08:39,430 --> 00:08:36,680 pointed out potential issues with the 192 00:08:42,190 --> 00:08:39,440 author's 2016 paper and letter noting 193 00:08:45,340 --> 00:08:42,200 quote I have never seen a letter to the 194 00:08:47,620 --> 00:08:45,350 editor as unprofessional as this unquote 195 00:08:50,890 --> 00:08:47,630 Hawke said he was not really satisfied 196 00:08:52,870 --> 00:08:50,900 with the retraction notice quote the 197 00:08:55,090 --> 00:08:52,880 editors apologised to the readers but 198 00:08:57,730 --> 00:08:55,100 not to the author's venom and myself and 199 00:08:59,980 --> 00:08:57,740 who had to fight for over four months to 200 00:09:01,810 --> 00:08:59,990 have unfounded claims about us removed 201 00:09:06,610 --> 00:09:01,820 from a professional scientific journal 202 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:06,620 and you can read the full statement at 203 00:09:09,850 --> 00:09:08,210 retraction watch that was just the 204 00:09:11,560 --> 00:09:09,860 edited highlights at retraction watch 205 00:09:14,020 --> 00:09:11,570 comm with a link in this week's show 206 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:14,030 notes and I'm pleased for 207 00:09:19,740 --> 00:09:16,330 Johanne been amou and david hawks that 208 00:09:23,110 --> 00:09:19,750 this retraction at last was forthcoming 209 00:09:25,450 --> 00:09:23,120 although as david hawks points out the 210 00:09:28,570 --> 00:09:25,460 apology was not to them but to the 211 00:09:31,870 --> 00:09:28,580 readers and a big shout out to Joanne 212 00:09:33,220 --> 00:09:31,880 Ben amou and David Hawks and that's 213 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:33,230 enough for me right now I'm gonna run 214 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:35,290 downstairs and have something soft 215 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:40,610 because of my tooth maybe some ice cream 216 00:09:45,610 --> 00:09:43,610 now who know though anything even 217 00:09:48,130 --> 00:09:45,620 slightly cold is really not very good 218 00:09:52,750 --> 00:09:48,140 for my tooth at the moment some warm ice 219 00:09:54,550 --> 00:09:52,760 cream hmm some jelly hmm no I run 220 00:09:58,970 --> 00:09:54,560 downstairs and decide about all that I 221 00:09:58,980 --> 00:10:18,380 [Music] 222 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:22,050 and joining me now all the way from 223 00:10:27,030 --> 00:10:24,970 Salinas California end sale Victoria 224 00:10:30,269 --> 00:10:27,040 Australia we have susan gerbic from 225 00:10:33,900 --> 00:10:30,279 guerrilla skepticism on wikipedia and we 226 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:33,910 also have one of the australian editors 227 00:10:40,010 --> 00:10:36,610 of a guerrilla skepticism on wikipedia 228 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:40,020 stewart jones hello everybody Richard hi 229 00:10:44,550 --> 00:10:41,730 Susan 230 00:10:46,470 --> 00:10:44,560 and it's quite fun because thanks to 231 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:46,480 modern technology we're all doing a bit 232 00:10:49,590 --> 00:10:48,010 of a three-way conversation interview 233 00:10:51,990 --> 00:10:49,600 but I can see everybody and everybody 234 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:52,000 can see me nothing's a secret anymore 235 00:10:58,530 --> 00:10:55,450 Susan no I'm really interested in what 236 00:11:00,480 --> 00:10:58,540 Stuart's gonna tell you today so I 237 00:11:02,250 --> 00:11:00,490 thought I'd give you both a call because 238 00:11:04,350 --> 00:11:02,260 Susan we interview you from time to time 239 00:11:06,300 --> 00:11:04,360 I'm the sceptic CERN and we run the 240 00:11:08,340 --> 00:11:06,310 promotions for guerrilla skepticism on 241 00:11:10,260 --> 00:11:08,350 Wikipedia and it occurred to me a lot of 242 00:11:12,690 --> 00:11:10,270 listeners might be interested to know 243 00:11:16,380 --> 00:11:12,700 what happens once they've contacted you 244 00:11:18,329 --> 00:11:16,390 what the process is and what the 245 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:18,339 discovery process is Stewart you're a 246 00:11:22,680 --> 00:11:20,890 great case in point now you out of the 247 00:11:25,170 --> 00:11:22,690 blue one day you were inspired to 248 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:25,180 contact Susan and maybe you can pick up 249 00:11:32,579 --> 00:11:28,330 the story what happened to you well 250 00:11:35,100 --> 00:11:32,589 Susan added me to the Facebook group 251 00:11:36,990 --> 00:11:35,110 which is a lot of fun secret Facebook 252 00:11:39,900 --> 00:11:37,000 group or not so secret and as we like to 253 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:39,910 say and it gave me a link to a Google 254 00:11:44,130 --> 00:11:41,650 Drive with all the training material on 255 00:11:46,140 --> 00:11:44,140 it and a while went and you found all 256 00:11:48,630 --> 00:11:46,150 the materials you needed right on the 257 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:48,640 the Google Drive huh yep they're all 258 00:11:52,860 --> 00:11:51,250 there every one of them so it wasn't a 259 00:11:54,810 --> 00:11:52,870 difficult process for you to learn the 260 00:11:57,420 --> 00:11:54,820 ropes as it were the the training was 261 00:12:00,480 --> 00:11:57,430 was fairly straightforward and I think 262 00:12:03,510 --> 00:12:00,490 you now are responsible for doing quite 263 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:03,520 a bit of editing on Wikipedia a little 264 00:12:07,680 --> 00:12:05,410 bit not as much do you say that we use 265 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:07,690 staff as I'd like but Susan's allow me 266 00:12:12,060 --> 00:12:09,970 to run off and do some other things as 267 00:12:14,730 --> 00:12:12,070 well but I think that having that 268 00:12:15,290 --> 00:12:14,740 freedom is very good as well very good 269 00:12:17,750 --> 00:12:15,300 part of it 270 00:12:21,199 --> 00:12:17,760 but time I've written written three 271 00:12:24,110 --> 00:12:21,209 pages I think four GS aw and written 272 00:12:25,940 --> 00:12:24,120 about four or five of my own and what 273 00:12:27,500 --> 00:12:25,950 was some of the the topics or the pages 274 00:12:30,079 --> 00:12:27,510 from a sceptical point of view that 275 00:12:31,730 --> 00:12:30,089 you've been working on I've been working 276 00:12:33,290 --> 00:12:31,740 on that on blue whale 277 00:12:36,650 --> 00:12:33,300 okay claim much credit for that because 278 00:12:39,380 --> 00:12:36,660 I read of their in London has done a lot 279 00:12:41,690 --> 00:12:39,390 of work there Tracey Spicer who everyone 280 00:12:43,970 --> 00:12:41,700 in Australia knows she's a journalist 281 00:12:46,759 --> 00:12:43,980 who's he's running with the me to 282 00:12:48,740 --> 00:12:46,769 campaign and I'll write throughout the 283 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:48,750 entire page for voluntary assisted dying 284 00:12:56,030 --> 00:12:50,970 in in Victoria which is which has just 285 00:12:57,980 --> 00:12:56,040 become law late last year so I wrote 286 00:12:59,360 --> 00:12:57,990 Anthony Pratt countess which was my 287 00:13:01,910 --> 00:12:59,370 first one that a lot of people would 288 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:01,920 know a bit Anthony but he's called on by 289 00:13:07,759 --> 00:13:05,370 the media I mean times of conflict in in 290 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:07,769 places and he's also he's a social 291 00:13:12,860 --> 00:13:09,890 psychologist who looks at scams as well 292 00:13:14,329 --> 00:13:12,870 and I well I mean you can't help I 293 00:13:15,829 --> 00:13:14,339 suppose when you do this sort of thing 294 00:13:17,420 --> 00:13:15,839 you you would be learning a lot 295 00:13:20,090 --> 00:13:17,430 personally yourself about these topics 296 00:13:21,769 --> 00:13:20,100 plenty I certainly learned a lot about 297 00:13:24,860 --> 00:13:21,779 urban myths and how they work 298 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:24,870 from working on the blue whale game and 299 00:13:29,230 --> 00:13:26,850 sort of learned a lot about people in 300 00:13:31,130 --> 00:13:29,240 here they behave to the bit of 301 00:13:32,180 --> 00:13:31,140 creepypasta if you want to know what 302 00:13:34,910 --> 00:13:32,190 that is you can look it up on Wikipedia 303 00:13:35,620 --> 00:13:34,920 but mass mass hysteria that's on there 304 00:13:38,900 --> 00:13:35,630 as well 305 00:13:40,810 --> 00:13:38,910 it's certainly very interesting alright 306 00:13:43,220 --> 00:13:40,820 now I'm gonna ask you about the recent 307 00:13:45,769 --> 00:13:43,230 skeptic camp and I know you gave a talk 308 00:13:47,870 --> 00:13:45,779 there about editing Wikipedia but before 309 00:13:50,300 --> 00:13:47,880 we do that Susan is this sort of typical 310 00:13:52,220 --> 00:13:50,310 of the the editors you have around the 311 00:13:54,560 --> 00:13:52,230 world picking it up relatively easily 312 00:13:57,530 --> 00:13:54,570 and then running with it well you know 313 00:14:00,590 --> 00:13:57,540 it's a lot of fun people are always 314 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:00,600 surprised whenever they write to me and 315 00:14:07,069 --> 00:14:03,810 I almost immediately put them in the 316 00:14:09,590 --> 00:14:07,079 group they are I think there's some sort 317 00:14:11,630 --> 00:14:09,600 of test I'm supposed to be giving them 318 00:14:14,420 --> 00:14:11,640 some of the emails I received from them 319 00:14:16,579 --> 00:14:14,430 are quite interesting where they'll give 320 00:14:21,410 --> 00:14:16,589 me this in-depth look of why they should 321 00:14:23,090 --> 00:14:21,420 be joining gso w I accept pretty much 322 00:14:28,030 --> 00:14:23,100 anybody who wants to join if you're 323 00:14:30,879 --> 00:14:28,040 willing to to try I will take you on and 324 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:30,889 when Stuart joined the group I looked at 325 00:14:37,810 --> 00:14:33,410 his email recently he said he could give 326 00:14:39,939 --> 00:14:37,820 me four or five hours a week he gives us 327 00:14:42,249 --> 00:14:39,949 a lot more than four or five hours 328 00:14:45,460 --> 00:14:42,259 Indian sometimes it feels like four or 329 00:14:49,629 --> 00:14:45,470 five hours a day and that's by choice 330 00:14:50,139 --> 00:14:49,639 right Stuart yeah definitely he's a lot 331 00:14:52,290 --> 00:14:50,149 of fun 332 00:14:55,930 --> 00:14:52,300 he was apprehensive I think at first and 333 00:14:58,120 --> 00:14:55,940 you know it takes a lot of time to train 334 00:15:01,329 --> 00:14:58,130 and Stuart makes us sound like it was 335 00:15:05,170 --> 00:15:01,339 just like really simple it's it's not 336 00:15:07,449 --> 00:15:05,180 that it's difficult it's it's kind of 337 00:15:11,559 --> 00:15:07,459 like taking an undergraduate college 338 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:11,569 class with assignments and but being on 339 00:15:15,939 --> 00:15:13,610 your own a lot where you're you're 340 00:15:18,129 --> 00:15:15,949 having to do the projects yourself and 341 00:15:20,199 --> 00:15:18,139 be motivated yourself and then you have 342 00:15:23,499 --> 00:15:20,209 this annoying professor that lives in 343 00:15:25,150 --> 00:15:23,509 California that uses Facebook to talk to 344 00:15:27,670 --> 00:15:25,160 you all the time and say how you doing 345 00:15:32,050 --> 00:15:27,680 how you doing how you come along with 346 00:15:36,340 --> 00:15:32,060 that it's it's an unusual 347 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:36,350 I think it's an unusual thing for people 348 00:15:44,710 --> 00:15:39,050 to to sign on to do it does take months 349 00:15:48,670 --> 00:15:44,720 to train Stuart's typical I guess he's 350 00:15:50,650 --> 00:15:48,680 not a computer programmer in half of the 351 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:50,660 group probably or involved in the 352 00:15:59,920 --> 00:15:55,490 computer industry in some way and Stuart 353 00:16:02,379 --> 00:15:59,930 tended to be a bit shy at first and now 354 00:16:04,990 --> 00:16:02,389 he's one of the one of the troublemakers 355 00:16:06,750 --> 00:16:05,000 of our secret cabal it's a nice way to 356 00:16:09,309 --> 00:16:06,760 put it 357 00:16:11,559 --> 00:16:09,319 they formed their own little friendships 358 00:16:13,660 --> 00:16:11,569 in their own little world and there's a 359 00:16:16,329 --> 00:16:13,670 lot of fun things that are that are 360 00:16:19,750 --> 00:16:16,339 going on in the cabal I think you should 361 00:16:22,420 --> 00:16:19,760 mention what the blue well is Stuart oh 362 00:16:26,230 --> 00:16:22,430 the blue the blue while is it's an even 363 00:16:28,059 --> 00:16:26,240 meet them started dead of Russia in 364 00:16:30,220 --> 00:16:28,069 relation to agar getting locked up for 365 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:30,230 curating death groups on the Internet 366 00:16:36,309 --> 00:16:33,410 and somehow it grew through the media to 367 00:16:39,189 --> 00:16:36,319 turn into a big suicide game and the 368 00:16:41,260 --> 00:16:39,199 idea was the the curator or the a 369 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:41,270 loosely a mentor would 370 00:16:47,470 --> 00:16:44,570 find somebody give them 50 tasks to do 371 00:16:49,900 --> 00:16:47,480 and the final task being out to commit 372 00:16:51,580 --> 00:16:49,910 suicide so it was a fairly sort of 373 00:16:53,980 --> 00:16:51,590 creepy game that some of the tasks 374 00:16:57,460 --> 00:16:53,990 included self-harm and watching watching 375 00:16:59,230 --> 00:16:57,470 scary movies and it worked there all the 376 00:17:03,520 --> 00:16:59,240 way up to that task and that was the 377 00:17:06,220 --> 00:17:03,530 myth it's and it is a myth but a lot of 378 00:17:08,410 --> 00:17:06,230 people were jumping on board was causing 379 00:17:11,620 --> 00:17:08,420 a bit of mass hysteria particularly in 380 00:17:13,210 --> 00:17:11,630 India I think we all think we must have 381 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:13,220 been getting two hundred thousand page 382 00:17:17,350 --> 00:17:16,010 views a day just from India and there 383 00:17:20,110 --> 00:17:17,360 were students getting on the tall page 384 00:17:22,569 --> 00:17:20,120 and saying here terrible it was and here 385 00:17:24,220 --> 00:17:22,579 we need to get rid of this game when in 386 00:17:27,069 --> 00:17:24,230 fact it wasn't a game at all and there 387 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:27,079 was all that it was like you saying it's 388 00:17:30,580 --> 00:17:29,930 a urban myth so that's what that was 389 00:17:33,070 --> 00:17:30,590 about 390 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:33,080 we had to remove a lot of we had to 391 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:35,330 remove a lot of a lot of things from the 392 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:38,210 page at one stage the 50 tasks were 393 00:17:44,410 --> 00:17:41,810 listed we removed that and we were 394 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:44,420 removed a lot of the a lot of the 395 00:17:49,660 --> 00:17:46,250 misinformation from the page or yes as 396 00:17:52,030 --> 00:17:49,670 well so I think we called it the worst 397 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:52,040 case of riff bombing we'd ever seen and 398 00:17:56,530 --> 00:17:55,250 a reference is something to cite or a 399 00:18:01,450 --> 00:17:56,540 citation that you see there in the 400 00:18:03,190 --> 00:18:01,460 bottom of a page there was well over 300 401 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:03,200 or I think on the page at one stage and 402 00:18:10,180 --> 00:18:05,570 we've got at the end of below 200 now 403 00:18:12,700 --> 00:18:10,190 and quite a few skeptical view points 404 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:12,710 have come onto it from psychologists 405 00:18:17,350 --> 00:18:15,290 rather than just journalists trying to 406 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:17,360 beat it up and that create clickbait I 407 00:18:21,820 --> 00:18:19,250 guess well that's interesting I didn't 408 00:18:23,260 --> 00:18:21,830 know I mean I had heard about that but 409 00:18:24,820 --> 00:18:23,270 again it's just typical the sort of 410 00:18:26,500 --> 00:18:24,830 things you will learn if you decide to 411 00:18:28,930 --> 00:18:26,510 become an editor for a guerrilla 412 00:18:31,360 --> 00:18:28,940 skepticism Susan what what sort of 413 00:18:33,130 --> 00:18:31,370 statistics now are we looking at I know 414 00:18:34,450 --> 00:18:33,140 Stuart you gave a talk at skeptic camp 415 00:18:37,450 --> 00:18:34,460 where you did mention some of the stats 416 00:18:39,550 --> 00:18:37,460 but we might get them from Susan's of 417 00:18:41,260 --> 00:18:39,560 course surely Susan you have your finger 418 00:18:47,650 --> 00:18:41,270 on the pulse of the this sort of thing 419 00:18:48,470 --> 00:18:47,660 right so we are tracking about 525 pages 420 00:18:57,470 --> 00:18:48,480 that we have 421 00:19:02,510 --> 00:18:57,480 existed and of those 500 I can tell you 422 00:19:06,110 --> 00:19:02,520 right now we're at 545 pages as of right 423 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:06,120 now and those 545 pages have just given 424 00:19:13,190 --> 00:19:10,410 us 23 million page views so we've just 425 00:19:17,150 --> 00:19:13,200 hit wow we're getting about 35,000 page 426 00:19:20,990 --> 00:19:17,160 views a day and we're hitting about 900 427 00:19:23,180 --> 00:19:21,000 page 900 thousand page views a month so 428 00:19:28,250 --> 00:19:23,190 we're almost at a million pages a month 429 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:28,260 so it's it's really just insane how many 430 00:19:33,409 --> 00:19:30,330 page views people are reading our work 431 00:19:36,710 --> 00:19:33,419 and this is in many languages not just 432 00:19:39,919 --> 00:19:36,720 in English we are writing in Dutch and 433 00:19:43,610 --> 00:19:39,929 and the tie-in in German and Portuguese 434 00:19:45,770 --> 00:19:43,620 and Spanish and we just had a new 435 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:45,780 recruit who just finished training and 436 00:19:51,770 --> 00:19:47,730 he's gone he lives in Sri Lanka and 437 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:51,780 he'll be writing in his language that he 438 00:19:56,110 --> 00:19:53,490 wants to write in there he has he's 439 00:20:00,860 --> 00:19:56,120 about started I think he's starting on 440 00:20:03,890 --> 00:20:00,870 homeopathy and it's some language in Sri 441 00:20:06,289 --> 00:20:03,900 Lanka and I don't have it handy right 442 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:06,299 it's movement now Susan well I think 443 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:08,010 about it because I can see you and 444 00:20:11,390 --> 00:20:09,690 Stuart I don't know if you notice behind 445 00:20:13,190 --> 00:20:11,400 Susan there's a map of the world with 446 00:20:15,650 --> 00:20:13,200 Australia right behind her head so 447 00:20:17,419 --> 00:20:15,660 that's very nice Susan that you you're 448 00:20:20,330 --> 00:20:17,429 thinking of us but on the other side of 449 00:20:21,890 --> 00:20:20,340 you on the other side of you is as I 450 00:20:24,710 --> 00:20:21,900 look I noticed that a little plaque 451 00:20:27,470 --> 00:20:24,720 there from the committee for skeptical 452 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:27,480 inquiry and big congratulations on 453 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:30,090 becoming a fellow thank you so much yeah 454 00:20:35,780 --> 00:20:33,330 I have I've just become a fellow and I 455 00:20:38,450 --> 00:20:35,790 just got the magazine today and I can 456 00:20:41,919 --> 00:20:38,460 see that they put me in the front cover 457 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:41,929 I'm right there next to Murray gell-mann 458 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:44,730 pretty damn good and that I'm still in 459 00:20:51,049 --> 00:20:47,490 the back cover as a scientific and 460 00:20:53,120 --> 00:20:51,059 technical consultant apparently now 461 00:20:55,490 --> 00:20:53,130 Stuart before we wrap it up and we 462 00:20:58,640 --> 00:20:55,500 alluded to this earlier you gave a talk 463 00:21:01,070 --> 00:20:58,650 about your activities on for guerrilla 464 00:21:01,970 --> 00:21:01,080 skepticism on Wikipedia at the recent 465 00:21:04,130 --> 00:21:01,980 skeptic 466 00:21:05,930 --> 00:21:04,140 and I think it was only in the last a 467 00:21:09,380 --> 00:21:05,940 week can you tell us a little bit about 468 00:21:11,630 --> 00:21:09,390 that me I'll just sort of have a bit of 469 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:11,640 a rundown of it what what drew me to I 470 00:21:17,450 --> 00:21:14,970 guess becoming skeptically active anyway 471 00:21:19,580 --> 00:21:17,460 um through my my wife being sick and 472 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:19,590 having breast cancer which she's 473 00:21:24,860 --> 00:21:22,050 thankfully over there and then I just 474 00:21:27,020 --> 00:21:24,870 ran into what we did at guerrilla 475 00:21:29,780 --> 00:21:27,030 skepticism went through a few things 476 00:21:32,300 --> 00:21:29,790 that that I thought were were fun or fun 477 00:21:32,690 --> 00:21:32,310 things that we did and it is a lot of 478 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:32,700 fun 479 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:34,290 because I wouldn't be doing it if it 480 00:21:38,300 --> 00:21:35,850 wasn't the hook sort of wouldn't pay 481 00:21:41,090 --> 00:21:38,310 they and then all sort of finished up 482 00:21:44,570 --> 00:21:41,100 with with a few statistics a bit a bit 483 00:21:46,190 --> 00:21:44,580 Wikipedia and and here we have we got 484 00:21:48,770 --> 00:21:46,200 along with the error statistical 485 00:21:50,030 --> 00:21:48,780 analysis so it was good it was I really 486 00:21:52,310 --> 00:21:50,040 enjoyed it there was about 50 people 487 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:52,320 there and it would have been a bad thing 488 00:21:57,860 --> 00:21:55,050 I think the seventh or write them 489 00:21:59,120 --> 00:21:57,870 skipped he came then there on the surf 490 00:22:00,980 --> 00:21:59,130 coast which I think makes it the 491 00:22:03,950 --> 00:22:00,990 longest-running skip T camp in Australia 492 00:22:05,990 --> 00:22:03,960 as well which is just fantastic very 493 00:22:08,950 --> 00:22:06,000 intimate occasion and we all went and 494 00:22:12,500 --> 00:22:08,960 sampled some great beer at the Aries pub 495 00:22:13,970 --> 00:22:12,510 at the end of the day so that's that's 496 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:13,980 always it good that's always a good 497 00:22:17,750 --> 00:22:15,330 thing that's always a good thing 498 00:22:20,930 --> 00:22:17,760 and folks Stewart gave a talk there 499 00:22:22,700 --> 00:22:20,940 which is on YouTube as a matter of fact 500 00:22:24,350 --> 00:22:22,710 I viewed the other day and then enjoyed 501 00:22:27,620 --> 00:22:24,360 that and I'll certainly add a link to 502 00:22:29,750 --> 00:22:27,630 that talk in the show notes oh I also 503 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:29,760 wanted to mention that Stewart was 504 00:22:34,220 --> 00:22:31,890 instrumental in one of our latest 505 00:22:39,140 --> 00:22:34,230 psychic stings we're calling it 506 00:22:42,140 --> 00:22:39,150 operation peach pit and that has yet to 507 00:22:44,660 --> 00:22:42,150 be revealed the results but that was 508 00:22:48,500 --> 00:22:44,670 another one of our stings and it was 509 00:22:52,490 --> 00:22:48,510 right over Facebook and it was about a 510 00:22:55,820 --> 00:22:52,500 month of work and Stewart stepped up and 511 00:22:59,570 --> 00:22:55,830 took on one of the lead roles of the 512 00:23:02,120 --> 00:22:59,580 creator of the fake Facebook pages that 513 00:23:04,130 --> 00:23:02,130 we were trying to use to catch a psychic 514 00:23:07,850 --> 00:23:04,140 that was in Philadelphia 515 00:23:11,510 --> 00:23:07,860 oddly enough and nor near me so we had a 516 00:23:13,340 --> 00:23:11,520 crew go in from Philadelphia that had no 517 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:13,350 idea what was on those Facebook pages 518 00:23:17,570 --> 00:23:14,730 trying to catch si 519 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:17,580 you cannot read and the story of that 520 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:19,530 and the results of that should be coming 521 00:23:23,810 --> 00:23:22,290 out hopefully in late March something to 522 00:23:25,669 --> 00:23:23,820 look forward to I love these names 523 00:23:28,100 --> 00:23:25,679 peach-pit you'll have to have an 524 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:28,110 operation Vegemite or timtam I think at 525 00:23:34,159 --> 00:23:30,690 some stage gotta find me a nice sidekick 526 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:34,169 over in Australia that I can use I'm 527 00:23:39,110 --> 00:23:36,690 looking for they need to be hungry they 528 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:39,120 need to be we want to catch hot readers 529 00:23:44,060 --> 00:23:42,330 and they need to use Facebook so you 530 00:23:48,130 --> 00:23:44,070 know if you can find me Sam I'll be 531 00:23:50,150 --> 00:23:48,140 happy to run another another sting 532 00:23:53,990 --> 00:23:50,160 operation Vegemite that might be 533 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:54,000 interesting because I'll have a chat to 534 00:23:57,799 --> 00:23:55,770 you offline Susan because I certainly 535 00:24:00,680 --> 00:23:57,809 know of a few psychics in this country 536 00:24:02,450 --> 00:24:00,690 who use hot reading who cheat to be 537 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:02,460 blunt about it without mentioning names 538 00:24:07,250 --> 00:24:04,650 so we might have a little chatter a bit 539 00:24:10,250 --> 00:24:07,260 later on Susan well send me some names 540 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:10,260 because I certainly and have a lot of my 541 00:24:14,780 --> 00:24:12,570 plate right now but it's something that 542 00:24:16,909 --> 00:24:14,790 we would like to be doing I I I can't 543 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:16,919 see any reason why we couldn't do a 544 00:24:22,490 --> 00:24:20,250 sting in Australia something to look 545 00:24:24,740 --> 00:24:22,500 forward to indeed we'll look Stuart Oh 546 00:24:26,450 --> 00:24:24,750 all the way down there in sail and 547 00:24:28,730 --> 00:24:26,460 Victoria lovely part of the world and 548 00:24:31,190 --> 00:24:28,740 Susan all the way over there in Salinas 549 00:24:34,250 --> 00:24:31,200 California thanks again and folks 550 00:24:37,130 --> 00:24:34,260 another another prompt if you want to 551 00:24:39,169 --> 00:24:37,140 join in the worldwide campaign and do 552 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:39,179 something for science and reason well I 553 00:24:43,730 --> 00:24:41,250 would suggest you become an answer for 554 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:43,740 guerrilla skepticism on Wikipedia but 555 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:46,890 for now Susan and Stuart thank you very 556 00:25:04,039 --> 00:24:49,010 much thanks for it - thank you 557 00:25:06,870 --> 00:25:04,049 [Music] 558 00:25:10,020 --> 00:25:06,880 the skeptic magazine the journal from 559 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:10,030 Australian skeptics subscribe online to 560 00:25:17,549 --> 00:25:12,250 the world's second oldest skeptical 561 00:25:20,730 --> 00:25:17,559 magazine visit WWF X comma u and click 562 00:25:25,140 --> 00:25:20,740 the publication's link you can also find 563 00:25:28,289 --> 00:25:25,150 there over 30 years on back issues free 564 00:25:32,850 --> 00:25:28,299 to download the skeptic magazine from 565 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:43,030 [Music] 566 00:25:58,990 --> 00:25:52,920 with dr. Paulie 567 00:26:02,830 --> 00:25:59,000 [Music] 568 00:26:06,430 --> 00:26:02,840 hi this is dr. poorly and welcome to my 569 00:26:09,279 --> 00:26:06,440 new segment random red I'll be talking 570 00:26:11,460 --> 00:26:09,289 about science issues that interest me we 571 00:26:14,409 --> 00:26:11,470 do without some more expert friends 572 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:14,419 today i talk with associate professor 573 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:16,490 ken harvey about the recently passed 574 00:26:26,110 --> 00:26:18,770 amendments to the TGA bill 575 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:26,120 [Music] 576 00:26:30,980 --> 00:26:29,010 I'm here today with dr. ken Harvey 577 00:26:32,810 --> 00:26:30,990 associate professor at the School of 578 00:26:35,260 --> 00:26:32,820 Public Health and preventative medicine 579 00:26:38,120 --> 00:26:35,270 at Monash University and well-known 580 00:26:41,270 --> 00:26:38,130 antiquary Crusader and one could say 581 00:26:43,660 --> 00:26:41,280 longtime critic of the TGA I thank you 582 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:43,670 for joining me again 583 00:26:52,370 --> 00:26:46,890 let me just rephrase that I'm a friend 584 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:52,380 of the TGA but sometimes friends yes I 585 00:26:56,330 --> 00:26:54,450 think that our closest friends and best 586 00:26:58,850 --> 00:26:56,340 friends are the ones that are able to do 587 00:27:01,190 --> 00:26:58,860 criticize us constructively I'm just 588 00:27:03,170 --> 00:27:01,200 wondering if you could it just for our 589 00:27:06,650 --> 00:27:03,180 international listeners and for those 590 00:27:09,050 --> 00:27:06,660 who are unaware of what the TGA is to 591 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:09,060 explain the purpose of the TGA or 592 00:27:16,090 --> 00:27:12,330 Therapeutic Goods Administration and the 593 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:16,100 TGA bill your first 30 goods 594 00:27:21,650 --> 00:27:18,330 administration is the regulatory 595 00:27:26,660 --> 00:27:21,660 authority in Australia for licensing 596 00:27:28,670 --> 00:27:26,670 medicines and medical devices to the 597 00:27:31,220 --> 00:27:28,680 United States student drug 598 00:27:33,890 --> 00:27:31,230 administration so its purpose is 599 00:27:36,530 --> 00:27:33,900 hopefully to ensure that medicines and 600 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:36,540 medical devices that are available to 601 00:27:42,770 --> 00:27:39,570 the Australian public are of reasonable 602 00:27:46,930 --> 00:27:42,780 quality safety and efficacy and the 603 00:27:54,620 --> 00:27:46,940 purpose so that's its job with medicines 604 00:27:57,470 --> 00:27:54,630 encompasses not just medicine but is 605 00:27:59,450 --> 00:27:57,480 also great supplements what we call 606 00:28:03,470 --> 00:27:59,460 complementary and traditional medicines 607 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:03,480 and what is the teaching a bill or what 608 00:28:10,450 --> 00:28:06,210 what was it prior to this new amendment 609 00:28:13,460 --> 00:28:10,460 and its purpose in regulation well it's 610 00:28:17,120 --> 00:28:13,470 an interesting title of the Therapeutic 611 00:28:20,270 --> 00:28:17,130 Goods Administration 2017 makers number 612 00:28:23,170 --> 00:28:20,280 one bill which sounds boring but in fact 613 00:28:25,910 --> 00:28:23,180 it was quite a controversial bill and 614 00:28:29,390 --> 00:28:25,920 some bits of it weren't so controversial 615 00:28:29,970 --> 00:28:29,400 for example a bit so that came up with a 616 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:29,980 producer 617 00:28:34,650 --> 00:28:32,530 kronole scam so patients could have 618 00:28:37,230 --> 00:28:34,660 earlier access to promising new 619 00:28:39,450 --> 00:28:37,240 medicines and that's something that most 620 00:28:42,060 --> 00:28:39,460 regulatory agencies are grappling with 621 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:42,070 how to get promising new medicines 622 00:28:48,510 --> 00:28:46,090 available the other provisions with 623 00:28:51,450 --> 00:28:48,520 medical devices again was to allow 624 00:28:55,230 --> 00:28:51,460 overseas regulatory departments to have 625 00:28:57,180 --> 00:28:55,240 their approvals accepted by Australia 626 00:28:59,520 --> 00:28:57,190 which might again get them to reach for 627 00:29:02,370 --> 00:28:59,530 markets sooner so there was some couple 628 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:02,380 non-controversial sensible bits but boy 629 00:29:06,710 --> 00:29:04,450 there were some controversial 630 00:29:09,150 --> 00:29:06,720 areas particularly regarding 631 00:29:12,210 --> 00:29:09,160 complementary medicines or supplements 632 00:29:15,659 --> 00:29:12,220 and also advertising of medicines to the 633 00:29:18,299 --> 00:29:15,669 general public so I saw you in December 634 00:29:19,950 --> 00:29:18,309 at the Victorian skeptics cafe I made 635 00:29:23,549 --> 00:29:19,960 out where you had your students present 636 00:29:25,980 --> 00:29:23,559 their whack-a-mole project findings and 637 00:29:28,590 --> 00:29:25,990 you brought the TJ amendment bill to our 638 00:29:31,700 --> 00:29:28,600 turn to men what was it nearly initially 639 00:29:34,500 --> 00:29:31,710 proposed and what was the issue here 640 00:29:38,310 --> 00:29:34,510 three issues that concerned us 641 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:38,320 first the TGA was proposing to abolish 642 00:29:43,950 --> 00:29:41,530 pre approval of advancements to the 643 00:29:46,799 --> 00:29:43,960 public for therapeutic products the 644 00:29:49,620 --> 00:29:46,809 second one was they were coming up with 645 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:49,630 a list of permitted indications the 646 00:29:54,690 --> 00:29:52,210 concept was good that the list was crazy 647 00:29:56,539 --> 00:29:54,700 and the third thing they proposed to 648 00:29:58,950 --> 00:29:56,549 take over the entire advertising 649 00:30:01,140 --> 00:29:58,960 complaint system and introduce a new 650 00:30:03,450 --> 00:30:01,150 code now certainly there were problems 651 00:30:06,930 --> 00:30:03,460 with the old system and there's a need 652 00:30:10,770 --> 00:30:06,940 for a new code but we didn't trust the 653 00:30:13,470 --> 00:30:10,780 TGA and we still don't so let's start 654 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:13,480 off by discussing first there the 655 00:30:20,700 --> 00:30:15,970 potential repercussions of getting rid 656 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:20,710 of the pre-approval of advertising there 657 00:30:26,580 --> 00:30:24,250 is a system for checking advertisements 658 00:30:29,549 --> 00:30:26,590 before they go into mainstream media 659 00:30:31,350 --> 00:30:29,559 which is creating television now it's 660 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:31,360 not perfect it's started a number of 661 00:30:33,870 --> 00:30:31,930 years ago 662 00:30:36,990 --> 00:30:33,880 we didn't have things like the internet 663 00:30:39,810 --> 00:30:37,000 and pay-tv so if a pre-approval system 664 00:30:42,780 --> 00:30:39,820 doesn't cope with new media but on the 665 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:42,790 other hand it does actually pick up an 666 00:30:48,570 --> 00:30:45,730 awful lot of bad investments that do 667 00:30:52,860 --> 00:30:48,580 need to be changed and improved the 668 00:30:55,770 --> 00:30:52,870 actual system is delegated by the TGA to 669 00:30:57,630 --> 00:30:55,780 two industry associations and that's a 670 00:30:59,460 --> 00:30:57,640 bit of a problem because sometimes they 671 00:31:02,370 --> 00:30:59,470 come to different conclusions on the 672 00:31:04,980 --> 00:31:02,380 same on the same advertisement it's also 673 00:31:08,010 --> 00:31:04,990 not perfect even for the ads they 674 00:31:10,470 --> 00:31:08,020 pre-approve now pick up things that are 675 00:31:12,690 --> 00:31:10,480 obviously crazy like someone advertising 676 00:31:16,980 --> 00:31:12,700 a new product the catsup that which 677 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:16,990 you're not allowed to do that'll pick up 678 00:31:22,140 --> 00:31:19,930 things like there's no mandatory warning 679 00:31:25,020 --> 00:31:22,150 some you meant to say you know it's 680 00:31:26,790 --> 00:31:25,030 persist let's see a doctor so they pick 681 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:26,800 up those sorts of things but they 682 00:31:31,260 --> 00:31:28,570 certainly don't pick up things where 683 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:31,270 there's concern that the evidence 684 00:31:35,550 --> 00:31:33,850 supporting a claim may not be 685 00:31:37,350 --> 00:31:35,560 appropriate they haven't got time to 686 00:31:39,660 --> 00:31:37,360 look up the Internet to look up 687 00:31:41,700 --> 00:31:39,670 references and shake those things up so 688 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:41,710 although it picks up a lot of good 689 00:31:46,950 --> 00:31:45,010 things and keeps bad ads out it's not 690 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:46,960 perfect and we still find that something 691 00:31:52,170 --> 00:31:48,610 like 10 percent of ads that have been 692 00:31:54,450 --> 00:31:52,180 pre-approved nevertheless will be found 693 00:31:57,920 --> 00:31:54,460 to breach the code of conduct when they 694 00:32:01,650 --> 00:31:57,930 go to the complaint system a concern 695 00:32:04,830 --> 00:32:01,660 remove it well they're into cutting red 696 00:32:08,340 --> 00:32:04,840 tape making life easier for industry and 697 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:08,350 so what they proposed was wet let's get 698 00:32:13,140 --> 00:32:10,050 rid of all the pre-approval and 699 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:13,150 hopefully by having and some stronger 700 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:15,490 sanctions and a bit more post marketing 701 00:32:20,430 --> 00:32:17,650 surveillance that there won't be any 702 00:32:22,590 --> 00:32:20,440 more problems interestingly even one of 703 00:32:24,300 --> 00:32:22,600 the industry associations Australian 704 00:32:27,540 --> 00:32:24,310 self-medication Industry Association 705 00:32:30,450 --> 00:32:27,550 which conducts pre-approval thought this 706 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:30,460 was crazy because they pick up so many 707 00:32:37,660 --> 00:32:33,930 problems themselves the system of 708 00:32:41,020 --> 00:32:37,670 increased penalties or whatever against 709 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:41,030 while the TGA to take companies to court 710 00:32:46,180 --> 00:32:43,370 they've never done that they haven't got 711 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:46,190 these specialist lawyers to do it they 712 00:32:51,610 --> 00:32:48,410 were talking about the ability to get 713 00:32:53,950 --> 00:32:51,620 bad ads out within ten days now that's 714 00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:53,960 just seems impossible because you've got 715 00:33:00,040 --> 00:32:57,050 to give industry the right of response 716 00:33:01,660 --> 00:33:00,050 to a complaint they've certainly if 717 00:33:05,620 --> 00:33:01,670 they're going to be frightening deliver 718 00:33:09,910 --> 00:33:05,630 fines or injunctions then again they get 719 00:33:11,770 --> 00:33:09,920 a lawyer and we find that for agencies 720 00:33:15,580 --> 00:33:11,780 like Australian Competition and Consumer 721 00:33:18,190 --> 00:33:15,590 Commission which does have again good 722 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:18,200 powers to bring industry under control 723 00:33:23,890 --> 00:33:21,890 it can take 12 months not 10 days to 724 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:23,900 bring companies to court and to get a 725 00:33:29,970 --> 00:33:26,210 good judgment against them so again we 726 00:33:34,570 --> 00:33:29,980 felt the TGA really is somewhat 727 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:34,580 difficult reduce these penalties and 728 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:37,490 sections it certainly seems that way and 729 00:33:43,770 --> 00:33:41,090 so perhaps we can have a quick 730 00:33:46,300 --> 00:33:43,780 discussion about the second concern and 731 00:33:49,300 --> 00:33:46,310 probably one of the most more disturbing 732 00:33:52,900 --> 00:33:49,310 ones is the indication list the 733 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:52,910 permissible indications yes what again 734 00:33:59,080 --> 00:33:55,610 the idea was quite a good one at the 735 00:34:00,430 --> 00:33:59,090 moment there is no pre market evaluation 736 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:00,440 by the TGA 737 00:34:04,420 --> 00:34:02,690 is to say there's some pre approval of 738 00:34:06,790 --> 00:34:04,430 some advertisements but there's no 739 00:34:08,950 --> 00:34:06,800 pre-market approval of complementary 740 00:34:11,409 --> 00:34:08,960 medicines or supplements by the TGA 741 00:34:13,990 --> 00:34:11,419 it's a trust based system and as you 742 00:34:15,490 --> 00:34:14,000 might imagine these sponsors can't be 743 00:34:19,919 --> 00:34:15,500 trusted they're linked to health 744 00:34:23,409 --> 00:34:19,929 evidence to support claims they make 745 00:34:25,900 --> 00:34:23,419 when the TGA does get around to some 746 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:25,910 post marketing surveillance they find 747 00:34:30,159 --> 00:34:27,770 and for last few years they've been 748 00:34:33,310 --> 00:34:30,169 finding that regulatory violations are 749 00:34:35,740 --> 00:34:33,320 run at around 80 percent of which most 750 00:34:37,450 --> 00:34:35,750 of those are because the companies 751 00:34:39,310 --> 00:34:37,460 actually don't have the evidence for 752 00:34:42,159 --> 00:34:39,320 their claims when it's looked at yet so 753 00:34:45,730 --> 00:34:42,169 what the companies do is make up lots of 754 00:34:48,550 --> 00:34:45,740 creative claims themselves which again 755 00:34:49,649 --> 00:34:48,560 can only be dealt with by complaints or 756 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:49,659 by person 757 00:34:54,839 --> 00:34:51,970 getting surveillance so again the 758 00:34:57,870 --> 00:34:54,849 teacher thought okay let's get rid of 759 00:35:00,450 --> 00:34:57,880 their ability to have creative claims 760 00:35:03,470 --> 00:35:00,460 which is a good idea and let's restrict 761 00:35:06,569 --> 00:35:03,480 them to a limited list of pre-approved 762 00:35:09,720 --> 00:35:06,579 indications or claims so the concept was 763 00:35:12,720 --> 00:35:09,730 good but typically the TGA then asked to 764 00:35:14,220 --> 00:35:12,730 the industry to come up with a list and 765 00:35:18,930 --> 00:35:14,230 of course the industry came up with a 766 00:35:21,240 --> 00:35:18,940 list of over a thousand 84% of the 767 00:35:24,690 --> 00:35:21,250 claims on the list were for what we call 768 00:35:28,319 --> 00:35:24,700 traditional indications indications that 769 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:28,329 don't need a scientific base indications 770 00:35:35,599 --> 00:35:31,410 for traditional Chinese medicine such as 771 00:35:39,390 --> 00:35:35,609 stimulated stagnant Chi Sub Zero yang 772 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:39,400 disinhibitor amid some fascinating some 773 00:35:46,849 --> 00:35:41,890 fascinating indications for traditional 774 00:35:54,349 --> 00:35:50,819 traditional medicine and as I say the 775 00:35:57,630 --> 00:35:54,359 tje bless them seemed to put traditional 776 00:35:59,849 --> 00:35:57,640 indications from alternate medical 777 00:36:02,700 --> 00:35:59,859 practices on the same basis as 778 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:02,710 scientific information in which it's 779 00:36:08,370 --> 00:36:05,410 going through the hierarchy of claims 780 00:36:11,279 --> 00:36:08,380 and controlled trials and meta-analysis 781 00:36:13,740 --> 00:36:11,289 so you can imagine that this list of 782 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:13,750 permitted indications with these 783 00:36:20,039 --> 00:36:16,690 laughable claims of disinhibited water 784 00:36:22,890 --> 00:36:20,049 was actually caused ridicule for the TGA 785 00:36:24,930 --> 00:36:22,900 it has been somewhat glorious and radio 786 00:36:27,779 --> 00:36:24,940 and television programmes and newspaper 787 00:36:30,150 --> 00:36:27,789 articles ridiculing Motiti a basic 788 00:36:33,269 --> 00:36:30,160 concern was it was going to allow a 789 00:36:35,069 --> 00:36:33,279 flood of these traditional products and 790 00:36:37,710 --> 00:36:35,079 we're seeing them already I mean there's 791 00:36:40,170 --> 00:36:37,720 a big Chinese influence in Australia and 792 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:40,180 a concern was that this is really 793 00:36:46,109 --> 00:36:42,970 pushing us you know science it's 794 00:36:49,559 --> 00:36:46,119 encouraging the sponsors of supplements 795 00:36:51,240 --> 00:36:49,569 to evade the need for scientific proof I 796 00:36:54,830 --> 00:36:51,250 mean why should they when they can come 797 00:36:56,630 --> 00:36:54,840 up with traditional indications 798 00:36:58,520 --> 00:36:56,640 it certainly may confuse the public 799 00:37:01,790 --> 00:36:58,530 learning already we're seeing 800 00:37:04,550 --> 00:37:01,800 advertisements for menopause products 801 00:37:07,940 --> 00:37:04,560 with menopause in big capital letters 802 00:37:10,580 --> 00:37:07,950 the byline of patron wisdom modern 803 00:37:11,630 --> 00:37:10,590 medicine and then bouncing your ying and 804 00:37:14,090 --> 00:37:11,640 your yang 805 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:14,100 you know what consumers will see is the 806 00:37:21,860 --> 00:37:18,930 huge label menopause and they'll see the 807 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:21,870 slogan that this is ancient wisdom and 808 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:25,170 modern medicine have no idea that there 809 00:37:28,460 --> 00:37:27,690 is absolutely no scientific evidence or 810 00:37:30,710 --> 00:37:28,470 whatsoever 811 00:37:32,540 --> 00:37:30,720 this is not certainly not get us hasn't 812 00:37:35,060 --> 00:37:32,550 stopped it from being advertised and 813 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:35,070 it's not going to stop a flood of this 814 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:38,010 craziness on the Australian market but 815 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:40,890 we will still be trying there is a new 816 00:37:46,430 --> 00:37:42,690 code coming up we've got the possibility 817 00:37:48,980 --> 00:37:46,440 of putting him advisory statements and 818 00:37:51,380 --> 00:37:48,990 warnings in the new code industry is 819 00:37:53,630 --> 00:37:51,390 resisting the media interests are 820 00:37:56,930 --> 00:37:53,640 resisting because they can make a lot of 821 00:37:58,310 --> 00:37:56,940 money from advertisements consumers and 822 00:38:02,420 --> 00:37:58,320 health professionals like the college 823 00:38:04,820 --> 00:38:02,430 PJ's are all for it but all for the 824 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:04,830 advisory but I suspect given that the 825 00:38:08,930 --> 00:38:06,930 teacher is a hundred percent funded by 826 00:38:13,460 --> 00:38:08,940 industry and given that there's good 827 00:38:17,570 --> 00:38:13,470 evidence captured by industry I I don't 828 00:38:19,430 --> 00:38:17,580 like our chances and and you know well 829 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:19,440 that I'm a pharmacist and I'm definitely 830 00:38:24,290 --> 00:38:22,410 not one that flogs the you know come in 831 00:38:27,170 --> 00:38:24,300 for a supplement and and things that you 832 00:38:29,540 --> 00:38:27,180 don't need so I think we're a mixed bag 833 00:38:31,550 --> 00:38:29,550 and unfortunately there's industry 834 00:38:34,820 --> 00:38:31,560 pressure on pharmacies to make ends meet 835 00:38:37,220 --> 00:38:34,830 and unfortunately it's the out of out of 836 00:38:39,260 --> 00:38:37,230 the dispensary or rather the shop stock 837 00:38:40,940 --> 00:38:39,270 that makes the money so it's a it's a 838 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:40,950 very bad position to be in 839 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:42,930 and if more money is being pumped into 840 00:38:52,460 --> 00:38:44,850 that that's that's not going to end well 841 00:38:54,470 --> 00:38:52,470 I think pharmacist extra money by doing 842 00:38:57,970 --> 00:38:54,480 and useful things like drug utilization 843 00:39:01,160 --> 00:38:57,980 review is working in general practice to 844 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:01,170 monitor elderly patients who often do 845 00:39:05,750 --> 00:39:03,690 need deep prescribing so the owner is 846 00:39:08,270 --> 00:39:05,760 there's lots of things as pharmacists 847 00:39:10,730 --> 00:39:08,280 can do that would help quality use of 848 00:39:12,830 --> 00:39:10,740 medicines but there lot did you say the 849 00:39:15,470 --> 00:39:12,840 commercial variety are often locked into 850 00:39:17,660 --> 00:39:15,480 a remuneration structure that has 851 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:17,670 diminished their income from the back of 852 00:39:22,220 --> 00:39:20,130 the shop and the prescription stuff and 853 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:22,230 is pushing them into craziness in the 854 00:39:29,359 --> 00:39:24,330 front of the shop but hopefully as I say 855 00:39:32,060 --> 00:39:29,369 there are changes so I can perhaps we'll 856 00:39:36,609 --> 00:39:32,070 have to do another interview sort of 857 00:39:40,670 --> 00:39:36,619 after the 1st of July when this new TGA 858 00:39:43,370 --> 00:39:40,680 system comes into play and we can update 859 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:43,380 the skeptics on listeners on where they 860 00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:45,570 can go on and lodge their complaints and 861 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:48,690 I think again this interesting I mean 862 00:39:55,130 --> 00:39:51,450 certainly this rating system is Scottish 863 00:39:57,230 --> 00:39:55,140 problems but one thing's sure we don't 864 00:40:00,109 --> 00:39:57,240 have the amount of adulteration 865 00:40:03,370 --> 00:40:00,119 craziness that the American supplement 866 00:40:06,740 --> 00:40:03,380 system has because the TJ does at least 867 00:40:08,720 --> 00:40:06,750 insist that the ingredients in our 868 00:40:11,720 --> 00:40:08,730 complementary medicines or supplements I 869 00:40:13,970 --> 00:40:11,730 will relatively save a manufacturer 870 00:40:17,410 --> 00:40:13,980 under Good Manufacturing Practice and so 871 00:40:21,020 --> 00:40:17,420 we don't have a great rate of 872 00:40:27,110 --> 00:40:21,030 contamination adulteration etc but we do 873 00:40:31,770 --> 00:40:28,830 so there you have it 874 00:40:33,980 --> 00:40:31,780 the ashes passed and there are three 875 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:33,990 main concerns that have been raised 876 00:40:38,610 --> 00:40:36,010 first the abolishment of the 877 00:40:40,350 --> 00:40:38,620 pre-approvals process although there was 878 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:40,360 a bit of a win in that will remain for 879 00:40:44,700 --> 00:40:41,410 the next two years while the new 880 00:40:47,100 --> 00:40:44,710 complaint system is tested the permitted 881 00:40:49,530 --> 00:40:47,110 indications list which includes some 882 00:40:52,830 --> 00:40:49,540 terminology that's not necessarily 883 00:40:55,110 --> 00:40:52,840 recognized by medical science and a 884 00:40:57,960 --> 00:40:55,120 rather ambitious compliance the 885 00:41:00,320 --> 00:40:57,970 complaints process I guess we'll have to 886 00:41:03,510 --> 00:41:00,330 wait until July to see what happens 887 00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:03,520 that's it for me for now thanks for 888 00:41:34,620 --> 00:41:03,970 listening 889 00:41:36,420 --> 00:41:34,630 zone now it would be remiss if I didn't 890 00:41:37,980 --> 00:41:36,430 mention the current story that all 891 00:41:40,230 --> 00:41:37,990 skeptics would be reading about at the 892 00:41:42,299 --> 00:41:40,240 moment the alleged sexual harassment 893 00:41:44,930 --> 00:41:42,309 allegations well the allegations aren't 894 00:41:47,789 --> 00:41:44,940 alleged I guess against Lawrence Krauss 895 00:41:50,700 --> 00:41:47,799 now I've met Lawrence Krauss a total of 896 00:41:52,890 --> 00:41:50,710 one time about 6 years ago where I said 897 00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:52,900 hello and he said hello apart from that 898 00:41:56,670 --> 00:41:55,210 he has never appeared on the skeptics 899 00:42:01,589 --> 00:41:56,680 own and I didn't have any plans for him 900 00:42:04,220 --> 00:42:01,599 to do so the list the the the length of 901 00:42:06,930 --> 00:42:04,230 the allegations against him are are 902 00:42:08,730 --> 00:42:06,940 disconcerting to say the least I'm sure 903 00:42:12,329 --> 00:42:08,740 we'll all see how this story plays out 904 00:42:14,130 --> 00:42:12,339 in the following weeks but for this week 905 00:42:20,700 --> 00:42:14,140 this is Richard Saunders signing off 906 00:42:22,739 --> 00:42:20,710 from Sydney Australia you've been 907 00:42:29,670 --> 00:42:22,749 listening to the skeptic zone podcast 908 00:42:32,130 --> 00:42:29,680 please visit our website at wwlp.com tax 909 00:42:36,029 --> 00:42:32,140 and to access the bat catalog of 910 00:42:37,890 --> 00:42:36,039 episodes going back to 2008 you can 911 00:42:40,950 --> 00:42:37,900 follow the skeptics on podcast on 912 00:42:43,229 --> 00:42:40,960 twitter at skeptic zone visit our 913 00:42:46,620 --> 00:42:43,239 facebook page or leave a review on 914 00:42:49,979 --> 00:42:46,630 itunes you can also support the skeptic 915 00:42:52,319 --> 00:42:49,989 zone via patreon or PayPal the skeptic 916 00:42:54,509 --> 00:42:52,329 zone podcast is an independent 917 00:42:56,489 --> 00:42:54,519 production 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